Curse

pumpkin pie · Oct 14, 2008, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Undisclosed

Do you get to pick your opponets? No. Then its random in my book.

Cloud of Ambiguity: We are talking about Picking your teammate, dodo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whirlwind

Players who hit enter close to the same time as someone else enter the same instance, thats how the system works, it's not an exploit.

AND I WILL SAY THIS ONCE MORE with a twist: LAME EXCUSE, you know very well what players are talking about here. Needless to cast cloud of ambiguity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medion

Too bad I only saw this thread today

Saw this (or something like it) posted several times in this thread. I take it you people assume that because of the name, it's intended to be random?

Not only does the name insist its Random, the explanation also says it should be random: Read for yourself, if not, let me pick you some excerpts:

"Test your mettle! Lead your team to victory or drag them to defeat. Two teams of four randomly allied players fight it out gladiator style."

"The Random Arenas (or RA) is a PvP arena where two teams of four randomly selected level 20 players battle each other."

"This means that the randomly assembled team will face a non-random, and usually better organized, team."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medion

As some people may remember, RA used to be called Competition Arenas http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Competition_Arena, so I guess that would mean the design-goal of that arena (whether we call it RA or Competition Arenas) has changed with a change in names?
If it hasn't, why would the design-goal of that arena be to make random teams when it could just as well be an arena where competition is meant to be extreme (seeing as we use names to determine the goals of an arena apparantly). And as we all (probably) know, with extreme competition there are people pushing the boundaries (synching). Seeing as Anet also knew that competition would cause that, pushing the boundaries (synching) was intended when they designed the arena.

Theres only 1 reason why Competitive Arena has been move to Battle Isle.

Reason 1: so that players need all 3 campaigns to play in "high end" meaning PvP using level 20 characters. As oppose to Ascalon Arena and Shiverpeak Arena.

It is never for the purpose so that players can SYNC AND EXPLOIT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medion

Owh, and yes I do synch. Why? To have some fun times with mates while earning gladpoints. We do it with the three of us so it's not as if I do it because it's more efficient earning glad points that way (it's not I can tell you from experience

). Also, we don't leave/quit/run into the other team when not synched.
Sure, we could do AB but that gets boring after a while too. TA is an option too, but that's no fun with randoms (like I said, we do it with 3 people) and takes a lot more organization to have some fun. GvG/HA is for even more people.

Again, no idea why games are supposed to be fair. But even if they were, I care more about 'life' being fair (to everyone) than about fair games.

Life will never be fair, because it is impossible to make it so, I wish, and I hope, that deep down human would want life to be fair. But as you can see, evidence speaks for itself, look at Synchronized Random Arena (Woot! an Oxymoron). Everyone wants that little edge over another human. But in a game you can play fair, yes you can. But do you want to?

This is another of my little suggestion:
instancing - low bandwidth - low cost = no monthly fees to play = Good

When players are trying to get into the battle, they are in "shared instanced area like outpost", when players get into the battle they are in "shared instanced area that has limited players" such as any one of these: a 2, 8, 16 or 24 players field (AB, HA, GvG, HB)

What happen in my opinion that happens when players click enter battle, they form "a line" like lining up to get into the arena, but there are many lines depending on how many Server are up and running, I am thinking it is one line per server, now, the system picks first 4 in each line, pair them then transport these 8 players onto the limited shared instanced play field.

Assuming the above is correct. bear in mind I don't do any type of game programming/coding.

Instead of picking the first 4 in each line, pick alternate in the lines, the alternate is also random, meaning pick player 1 from line 1, player 3 from line 2, player 6 from line 3, generate a random numbers to pick ever 30 seconds (the waiting time) the next time the system would pick player 2 from line 2, player 1 from line 3 et cetera. But never first 4 in any line, never match all first in all lines. Also don't have a set timing where match starts ie this one: After a short waiting period (with intervals of 30 seconds) make it differs 20 30 40 50 seconds wait period.

Kashrlyyk · Oct 14, 2008, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalamika

....
All sarcasm aside, how in the world is sync'ing an exploit? ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striken7

"Exploit:
Mostly used about multi-player games, an exploit can be defined as a case where a player knowingly uses a flaw in a game to gain an unfair advantage."

A Dictionary of Video Game Theory

If you are able to to create order and organization in a game designed to be completely random, is it considered a flaw of the game? Does knowingly using this flaw provide an advantage over those who don't? Seems like an exploit to me, which has nothing to do with "morals"...
....

Question answered? http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=132

Arkantos · Oct 14, 2008, 06:17 AM // 06:17

But is this technically a flaw?

Random Arenas is an arena where two teams of four randomly selected players battle each other. It's working exactly as it should be. Yes, you and a friend are both clicking enter battle at the same time, but the two (or more) of you are still being chosen randomly by the party system.

In the end, the parties are still randomly chosen. As long as the parties are randomly chosen (in other words, as long as you can't do something to have a 100% chance to be in the same party as your friend), there is no flaw.

The only thing that can be done to prevent this is to change the way the party system works, which isn't going to happen.

DarkNecrid · Oct 14, 2008, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Go into a foreign Random Arenas district where 4 people are fighting 4 other people, then the 4 losers all leave, you get 3 friends and all enter at same time.

100% chance you'll all be paired up.

</smartass>

But yes, it's not against the rules because the system does it.

pumpkin pie · Oct 14, 2008, 06:29 AM // 06:29

that is a flaw system,

i'll say this one more time, the system does it, everyone knows it, knowing that system to be flaw and using it to gain advantage over other players is call, let me see, hrmz, EXPLOIT. as oppose to if the system is not flaw, and you use it, then I have nothing to say. but this system is flawed, and using it to gain advantages is I REPEAT EXPLOIT

don't need to cast cloud of ambiguity here, we know what you are trying to do. to both above posts.

DarkNecrid · Oct 14, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

How are you using it to gain an advantage if its purely random that you gain such an advantage?

Abedeus · Oct 14, 2008, 06:49 AM // 06:49

On empty server, it's 70% chance of success, if not more.

pumpkin pie · Oct 14, 2008, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

How are you using it to gain an advantage if its purely random that you gain such an advantage?

First part this post says it best, if you have follow this thread you would have understand.

Cloud of Ambiguity:
If you really really must and need me to explain, let me ask you a simple question first: if there's no advantage in synching in RA, do you think players would have come up with this cheat method in the first place?

when it involve players counting down and pressing the enter battle button at the count of 3, then its not random anymore.

Arkantos · Oct 14, 2008, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

that is a flaw system,

i'll say this one more time, the system does it, everyone knows it, knowing that system to be flaw and using it to gain advantage over other players is call, let me see, hrmz, EXPLOIT. as oppose to if the system is not flaw, and you use it, then I have nothing to say. but this system is flawed, and using it to gain advantages is I REPEAT EXPLOIT

don't need to cast cloud of ambiguity here, we know what you are trying to do. to both above posts.

But it's not a flaw. The system works exactly the way it's supposed to - it chooses 2 teams of 4 random players. The fact that you and a friend end up on the same team doesn't mean it's a flaw. The system still randomly chose you and your friend.

Quote:

when it involve players counting down and pressing the enter battle button at the count of 3, then its not random anymore.

The way you and a friend click it at the same time isn't random, but the way the system chooses the teams still is. It will always be randomly chosen teams.

Quote:

On empty server, it's 70% chance of success, if not more.

Yes, there's a high chance of you successfully syncing on an empty server. But the fact still remains that the system is randomly choosing the teams, which is how it's supposed to work. Until someone alters the system to guarantee you and a friend on a team (which means that the teams were not randomly chosen), there really isn't an exploit.

Raul the Rampant · Oct 14, 2008, 07:19 AM // 07:19

First, let's not forget that with the currently used system for creating teams it is entirely possible to end up on the same team as someone who does not hit enter at the same time as you do. The chances are lower in theory, though it is an entirely possible and common outcome.

From there...

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

that is a flaw system,

i'll say this one more time, the system does it, everyone knows it, knowing that system to be flaw and using it to gain advantage over other players is call, let me see, hrmz, EXPLOIT. as oppose to if the system is not flaw, and you use it, then I have nothing to say. but this system is flawed, and using it to gain advantages is I REPEAT EXPLOIT

don't need to cast cloud of ambiguity here, we know what you are trying to do. to both above posts.

Throughout this entire thread you are calling for Random Arenas to define some pattern to discriminate against certain situations and people and prevent them from ending up on the same team based on certain criteria...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

ran·dom - adj. Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements.

By definition, then, you want Random Arenas to maintain it's randomness by creating teams based on rigid criteria in order to eliminate the chances of a random outcome of which you do not approve. Methinks there is a word for this? Oh yeah:

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Woot! an Oxymoron

You can adjust the queue system all you want, but if there is a pattern at all to how it's done people will figure it out and abuse it... just get 16 or so people together, find and empty dist and experiment for half an hour. Not much of a problem. Or you could change the queue order every time, but that still leaves the possibility that two people who know each other end up on the same team. You can't add additional criteria to circumvent the random aspects of the system though and still call it random arenas. If you do you get "Clouded Ambiguity Arenas."

pumpkin pie · Oct 14, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by countesscorpula

On Topic:
There is a distinct advantage to Synchronizing. You can build a balanced team that employs skills that compliment each other... something the opponent has only a small random chance of accomplishing. Synchronized teams also have better communication options (re: teamspeak or Vent.) They can issue directives audibly, leaving their fingers free for more efficient skill use and maneuvering. This is a clear advantage over random teams obliged to type and ping information.

I feel that if people wish to be on synchronized, co-operative teams, they should play in the team arenas. It is a clear and unfair advantage over those who play in the random arenas as they were intended by the designers.

A possible and imperfect solution would be to block players in the same guild/alliance from being placed on the same RA team, or even the same matches (because if placed on opposing teams, one might work against his/her team to benefit the other).

If you really want to PvP with your friends, try Team Arenas, HA, or Guild Battles. Random arenas are supposed to be just that, random. Attempts at synchronizing are an obvious effort to circumvent the intended use of that element of the game. There are places set up for co-ordinated play, and RA is not

I'll post it if you don't want to read it, and i am not going to argue with you, how random the selection is.

I am going to tell you this, however, why player sync.

Because one day some friends ended up on a same group, weather purposely doing it or not, it made them think and subsequently found out that you can get into a same group if you use certain method, and they thought since random arena is so hard to get a good group, why not, since we can get into a same group by using countdown, why not, we use a team arena build and sync into RA, that would be so cool, so they try and tested it, and words travel fast, and many many have use it until some players quit playing RA all together, and as many players here have stated, its fairly easy and success rate is high to sync.

many many other players start to complain, because too many players kept leaving looking for their sync partners, while leechers suck on, so Arena Net put in a report system, why, because they think if they deter players from leaving a group, then cases of players synching might be lower, but, the success rate of synching is so hight that most the time, synchers do not even need to leave a group, rendering the report system against synchers useless.

Hence the over flowing of Random Arena with Synchers.

Synching is all about taking advantage over other players, may it be Random or not, expoiting the system and other players to get ahead in that game = exploit = cheat

fenix · Oct 14, 2008, 07:40 AM // 07:40

This isn't an exploit. It's exactly how the system has worked for 3.5 years, and how it was intended on working. If there was 1 district for RA, then syncing wouldn't be possible. This only works because of empty districts. Koreans have done this LITERALLY since release.

Exploits involve abusing a bug/glitch. There is no bug or glitch. It selects the team based on the players who enter at the same time from the same district. If there are less players, then the team will be made up of whoever is there to select. There is no exploit here.

Arkantos · Oct 14, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Well Fenix, RA is obviously serious business these days.

Hyper.nl · Oct 14, 2008, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

[...]
If anything is going to change syncing, it should be to remove the gladiator title from RA. Won't fix syncing obviously, but it takes away the reward for winning.

Yeah, punish the vast majority of non-syncers as well in your attempt to 'solve' the problem.

/notsigned.

Kashrlyyk · Oct 14, 2008, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

....Or you could change the queue order every time, but that still leaves the possibility that two people who know each other end up on the same team.

Two people is much much better than 4 people.

What probability should there be for all 4 to be on the same team so that it is a random arena? Does that fit with the probability created by synching?

Numa Pompilius · Oct 14, 2008, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

This isn't an exploit.

Is this a way for players to use game mechanics in an unintended way to get an unfair advantage over other players? If so, it's an exploit.

Quote:

It's exactly how the system has worked for 3.5 years, and how it was intended on working.

It's intentional that some teams are organized, and the rest random? I doubt that.
An exploit is that users find a way of using game mechanics in an unexpected way to gain unfair advantages. There doesn't have to be any bugs, hacks, or glitches for there to be exploits.

Quote:

Koreans have done this LITERALLY since release.

Pretty much. So?

Also, like you say the solution is simple: pool queues from the different districts, then randomize order.

DreamWind · Oct 14, 2008, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper.nl

Yeah, punish the vast majority of non-syncers as well in your attempt to 'solve' the problem.

/notsigned.

Does anybody else find it hilarious that removing glad points is considered a punishment? I'd consider it a blessing.

Numa Pompilius · Oct 14, 2008, 12:42 PM // 12:42

I will say this for this thread: it seems to have raised awareness of synching.

I just visited RA, and a) got in a synch team (they weren't in the same guild, but were moaning they didn't get their own monk), b) fought at least two synch teams (two or more on the other team had the same guild tag), and c) there were a lot more leavers than usual, almost like in the bad old pre-dishonorable days.

Which I suppose is good. Widespread abuse is probably the only way to goad ANet into action.

The First Silvari · Oct 14, 2008, 01:01 PM // 13:01

erm 10 wins in RA you get sent to TA. So whats the big deal?

jaximus · Oct 14, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

the argument seems a bit one sided here. people saying syncing makes it harder to win in random arenas. they say that teams that sync win a lot more often. lets ask why that is. is it because their builds compliment each other? maybe thats true, but then lets see this from the other point of view. say they have complimenting builds and they dont get on the same team. what then? a less than efficient bar mixed in with other peoples non coordinating builds? so they fail hard? if you look at it that way, its not really that bad. maybe people sync with a bar they would use that doesnt at all have to do with their sync partner. maybe having two people with a rez sig on the same team wins in ra... oh yeah thats right, 8 skills > 1. the players are prolly just better, id take a team of decent players over a team of fail and one prodigy. they are undoubtedly sick of how bad people fail so they want someone on the team with an idea of whats going on. its random arenas, bring a rez(and use it early), dont be a hero.